Fritz/MT Marriage Project
Sep. 12th, 2021 02:59 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
mildred_of_midgard posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
rheinsbergOur salon's first encounter with the Fritz/MT ship came when selenak reported on a miniseries about MT:
The Maria Theresia two parter early on has a not very historical case of Prince Eugen & Grumpkow scheming to to get those crazy kids - her and Fritz - together in a marriage alliance, difference of religion be damned, thereby solving the succession troubles, and young teenage MT basically is all "You want me to marry into that insane family with all the abuse? Thanks but no thanks, I'm marrying Franzl!"
But then,mildred_of_midgard ran across a historical case of this ship in MacDonogh!
Frederick was looking for solutions that might bring him back his liberty. On 11 April 1731 he hit on the idea of standing down as crown prince in favour of his brother William, and putting himself forward as a candidate for the Empire. To this end he suggested that one of the two Habsburg archduchesses might be made over to him for a wife. The letter was also signed by a group of men who were forming themselves into the prince’s new council: his marshal, Wolden, Natzmer and Rohwedel. Grumbkow was alarmed by this new suggestion from Frederick: ‘an archduchess would never marry a prince who wasn’t completely Catholic’. He sent the letter back to Hille and told him to burn it in the presence of the prince.
Both Seckendorff and the king none the less heard about the idea, the latter probably after Seckendorff sent word to Prince Eugene in Vienna, who was verging on senility and wanted Frederick William to tell him which archduchess he had in mind. Prince Eugene described the project as ‘peculiar’. Frederick William was even less impressed, and he was hurt by the thought that his son might consider converting to Catholicism.
mildred_of_midgard: Keep in mind, Katte was executed Nov 6, 1730. This is only 6 months later. FW's "rehabilitation" regime is going full strength trying to break his son's will. Fritz must have been *desperate*.
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/160700.html?thread=1151420#cmt1151420
Of course, the difference is that this was Fritz's idea, and Eugene and Seckendorf were very "WTF no" about it. We later turned up the primary source for this, in Förster's collection of correspondence:
selenak: Now, if I go by the editorial remarks Förster in his first volume thought there was an evil Catholic-Imperial plot afoot to make Fritz in his hour of need a Catholic. Here, in volume 3, he admits the documents don't bear that out, as the Imperials are less than thrilled by the MT/Conversion idea, which is that of Fritz, but he assures his readers that the hero of the Protestant faith surely was just looking to incriminate Grumbkow & Seckendorff in the eyes of FW and never would he ever. Meanwhile, in 1731, Prince Eugene seems to be far from senile, for upon hearing from Grumbkow that Fritz is interested in aquiring an Archduchess, he makes this assessment of Junior:
The proposal sent by the Crown Prince to Grumbkow is strange, and Grumbkow did well to give his response in such a way, for it seems likely that the Crown Prince suggested such a project to deduce from the replly as to whether the King has any attention of looking for a marriage with an Archduchess. This is enlightening regarding the Crown Prince's falsehood, as is his reply through Hille to Grumbkow that he would have to do violence to his nature in such case, as so far he has little love for the Archhouse. This new project as well as the one from some months ago which came to us via Natzmer, shows how far reaching ideas this young man has, and while these are currently spontanous and not well thought through, he does not appear energy or common sense. Which is why he ought to become more dangerous to his neighbours in time, if he can't be rid of his current principles. Other than the Bevern marriage, there's little or nothing to hope for him right now. The harder the King treats him, the more he'll insist on changing all his father does once it is his time.
Eugene, I'm impressed.
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/166556.html?thread=1807004#cmt1807004
selenak revisiting the letters in more detail:
So, checking out the various Volz volumes again, I was reminded of the bizarreness, I was reminded once more of Fritz' "Me/Archduchess = Me/Freedom = OTP!" plan in Küstrin, which had everyone else going WTF, and thus neatly proved that either Fritz was lying to Katte point blank when claiming Grumbkow and Seckendorff were trying to pressure him into this, or Katte made it up on the spot during interrogation, which is doubtful, given the frequency with which Fritz returns to this idea in 1731 and early 1732. Now why would Fritz lie like the lying liar he ultimately was in later years towards the person who was at the point of the lie his main confidant? Possibly because Katte (as opposed to Peter Keith) advised caution and didn't want to go with the escape plan at first when Fritz broke it to him. But why this particular lie? Having read Hans Heinrich's letters about his dead son by now, I tentatively suggest Fritz might have been aware that Katte wasn't a deist, let alone an atheist, but was in fact despite liking French philosophers serious about his Protestantism, and claiming that the two most powerful schemers at court who had his father's ear most of the time were trying to set him up for marriage (and thus Catholic conversion) with a Habsburg would work as an argument in his favor with Katte. Either way, I don't think I've ever seen fanfic or profic tackling the (very likely) fact that Fritz lied to Katte in 1730 in order to get him to agree to the escape plan.
As a reminder, here's the first time Fritz brings up the Me/MT = OTP! plan in Küstrin.
Hille to Grumbkow, April 11th 1731: Tonight at 12 the Crown Prince got me out of bed in order to talk to him. In the presence of his gentlemen - (these are the Kammerjunker Fritz by then had been given as attendants) he presented a plan to me which I have taken down in writing and which I deliver to Your Excellency in his name. He is starting to get so bored in his present situation that he sees no possibility to change it except for taking every bad impression his father the King has of him away; he believes to succeed in this by removing every possible suspicion and doubt regarding his marriage plans. He tells this to you in confidence and relies completely on your wisdom; for he is convinced that you will use his declaration in his interests, and even if it was just to convince his majesty that he's seeking to guess the means by which he can return into the King's grace. The bearer of this message will await Your Excellency's orders; I'm asking urgently to send the plan back, the first drawing of which with the signatures of the three gentlemen I have retained. I must admit that I see great difficulties in all of this, and basically regard it as impossible.
Attached: Fritz' v.v. secret plan, dated Küstrin, April 11th 1731. Opens with a declaration that he wants to do anything his father wants, despite having to live like a "Kleinstädter" (citizen of a small town) now, and swears he has no marriage intention against the King's will anymore. To prove it, he swears he'll agree to "the intention of the King if his Majesty, despite rumor having it otherwise, has such intentions towards the House of Austria", and leaves it to Grumbkow's discretion to break this to FW. For:
As the slightest glimpse of light in situations like the one his royal highness is in awake hope, he does not consider the affair to be impossible. Since the Imperial Court seems no longer to want the Duke of Lorraine and no other suitable Catholic prince is available, said court could not make a better choice than to connect itself with a House which practices in its own territory complete religious toleration, and if England, which is inseparable from the United Netherlands, connects itself through marriage with the Princess of Prussia, then his Royal Highness believes the Pragmatic Sanction of the Emperor to be firm enough that no one would have to worry about possible contradictions.
Take that in. BTW, I don't know where Fritz heard FS is no longer an option for MT. Clearly, his sources suck when it comes to Austrian gossip. But wait, there's more.
Since the Prince does recognize that the union of the Austrian heartlands and those of the House of Prussia will uneven the European balance too much and could awake jealousy, yes, even resistance, he will gladly give up the later in favor of his brother, as soon as the deal is made and he's been given a large enough budget so he can live decently in the life times of the Emperor.
We the undersigned.... Etc.
Once more, I feel completely justified in the first of my Fritz/MT AUs. :)
Meanwhile, Grumbkow's WTF?!? reply letter to Hille is also immensely quotable. (And revealing re: FW projecting on Fritz.)
Berlin, April 14th 1731.
I didn't know what hit me when I returned yesterday from Potsdam and found the included. I'm sending you the entire thing back and beg you to burn it in the presence of the Crown Prince and the undersigned. (...) The entire document rests on completely invented assumptions. (...)
The King has much worse thoughts about the Crown Prince's character about which he's talked to me at length yesterday. 1.) He considers him to be a complete fraud, 2.) he's convinced the Crown Prince never loved him, that the opposite is true, even more than that; 3.) that he's content as a King in Küstrin, just because he' doesn't need to be near (FW) anymore, and that he hates everything which includes effort and work; 4. finally, he believes that anything that gives him, the King, the slightest bit of joy is bound to be repellent to the Crown Prince. If one tries to distract him ever so delicately and to suggest less worse interpretations, I get the reply: "If I see him coming from thirty feet away, I can read from his face what's in his heart. He probably thinks I have magical powers", and so on and so forth.
As you can see, it's necessary to disperse these impressions, and to achieve this aim, Herr von Wolden needs to support me in his reports by claiming that the Crown Prince gets ever sadder, that he doesn't see an end to his misery and his disgrace and that he's afraid all this will have a bad effect on (Fritz') temper. When I told the King: "Your Majesty may believe my word that the Crown Prince is weary, and he won't be able to endure much longer," I noticed this leased him, and he asked me: "Do you really believe that?" Me: "Yes, I've been informed in great detail of this." In short, I am telling you what the King holds against him, and you can address this in your future official letters to me. Most of all, it has to be achieved that the Crown Prince is able to see the King at least once. If this can be achieved, everything else can be worked out. You know my thoughts on this matter. If it can't be, then only God can resolve this happily. But we as humans do what we can, and then we can't be blamed...
However, Grumbkow wasn't shocked enough not to report the entire thing to Seckendorff, who told Eugene. I already quoted from Eugene's WTF letter, but it's worth quoting again.
Vienna, May 12th 1731
...The project sent by the Crown Prince to Grumbkow is very odd, and Grumbkow has done well to reply as he did, as it strikes me as quite likely that the Crown Prince has come up with such eagerness with such a project in order to deduce by the reply whether the King intends a marriage with an Archduchess. It proves the Crown Prince's falseness and judging by what he replied in turn to Grumbkow via Hille, he's forced himself into such a prosposition in order to assume the guise of love despite having little of it for the archhouse, it's quite revealing: this new project and the one from several months ago and what other far reaching ideas this young gentleman has. And despite this latest one is improvised and hasn't been pondered thoroughly, he's clearly not lacking in energy and a sharp mind, and he'll become dangerous to his neighbours in time unless he can be talked out of his current principles, which isn't to be hoped for very much or at all except for the Bevern marriage (with EC, who is the Empress' niece) ; the harsher the King deals with him, the more resistant he will be, and will in his time alter all which his father does.
I would say Eugene could be right about this just being a fishing expedition by Fritz, except in early 1732, he's back to telling Grumbkow the Empress shouldn't give him her niece (EC) but her daughter, and wouldn't that be a great idea.
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/183223.html?thread=3169719#cmt3169719
More primary sources in the form of letters from Fritz to Grumbkow even after he was released from Kustrin, trying to get married to MT instead of EC:
selenak: [Koser has] a lot of quotes from the letters to Grumbkow, including one from early 1732 (!) where Fritz tells Grumbkow the Empress would to better to give him her daughter (MT) instead of her niece (EC). No MT for you, Fritz, believe me, you were both happier that way. Though whether Europe was, that‘s another question. Anyway, that he keeps bringing up this MT marriage plan while the Imperial party is all „naaaaah, let’s not“ repeatedly is hilarious in the face of all the „evil Catholic plot!“ allegations. Btw, Koser assures us our hero naturally had nothing but contempt for the Catholic religion (true) and was a true Protestant in his heart, Deist leanings not withstanding. If the Emperor had given him his daughter he‘d still have NEVER converted! (Well...)
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/167303.html?thread=1851527#cmt1851527
And then we turned up a not very reliable historical figure crediting FW with the idea:
mildred_of_midgard: Oh, speaking of the MT marriage AU, MacDonogh says Thiébault says FW was responsible for the idea. So maybe your miniseries scriptwriters were reading Thiébault! (That may be giving them too much credit.)
selenak: FW credited for the MT marriage idea: sounds like a French Catholic (i.e. Thièbault) with little to no idea how much of a Calvinist FW was, and how important the royal house being arch protestants was in Prussia. Not surprising, if you consider T likely did not interact with any non-court based Prussians at all. I mean, he was forbidden to learn German, so he lived in this bubble of French speaking nobles, most of whom by the later 1760s wouldn't have memories of FW anymore.
18th century authors with a dog in the fight and no access to the archives debate over whether Fritz would or would not:
mildred_of_midgard: So, you know Muller, the pastor at Küstrin? His son got interviewed by Nicolai fifty years later. Carlyle quotes the son:
"'My Father used to say, he found an excellent knowledge and conviction of the truths of religion in the Crown-Prince. [Insert evidence of how devout Fritz was at that point in his life.] Whoever considers this fine knowledge of religion, and reflects on the peculiar character and genius of the young Herr, which was ever struggling towards light and clearness (for at that time he had not become indifferent to religion, he often prayed with my Father on his knees),— will find that it was morally impossible this young Prince could have thought [as some foolish persons have asserted] of throwing himself into the arms of Papal Superstition [seeking help at Vienna, marrying an Austrian Archduchess, and I know not what] or allow the intrigues of Catholic Priests to'— Oh no, Herr Muller, nobody but very foolish persons could imagine such a thing of this young Herr."
So apparently, the marriage project was well enough known that half a century later, some guy who wasn't even there was still trying to convince people Fritz WOULD NEVER.
Me: *is pretty sure Fritz would*
Also: is Carlyle being sarcastic in that last sentence or not? I can't tell without reading him more extensively, and I don't want to read him more extensively. I only cherry-pick from the Fritz bio because it has a gazillion volumes' worth of data.
selenak: I can't tell, either; as a late 19th century cranky Scot, he's both likely to have thought "as if Fritz, hero and defender of Protestants everywhere in Europe, would!" and "of course Fritz, masterful tactician and faker if needs must, would, you naive Son Of Muller!"
But yeah, I'm with you: he would have if he could have. Meanwhile, here's how I imagine things went down in Potsdam:
Grumpkow: Your Majesty, the crown prince is now very devout, praying with Pastor Muller.
FW: Good.
G: He's sworn off the English marriage project.
FW: He'd better.
G:...and wants to marry an Austrian archduchess, convert to Catholicism and move to Vienna.
FW: WTF?!!!!!
G: Just a suggestion, maybe allow him to play the flute again? Just as an alternative to Catholicism, of course.
Meanwhile, in a dispatch to Vienna:
Seckendorff to Prince Eugene: Things are still bonkers here, crown prince just proposed to archduchess, plz ignore!
Eugene to Seckendorff: WTF????
Zimmermann, in contrast, writing in 1790, not only thinks Fritz would but thinks Fritz *did*--at least in terms of attempting to escape in 1730 so he could marry MT.
selenak: Zimmerman‘s theory as to why Fritz tried to escape is pretty original, though. He says he doesn‘t buy the story of Fritz wanting to go to England and still pursuing the English marriage project. No, his own theory is that Fritz wanted to go to Austria and marry MT. He says he knows there is much indignation and scepticism about the Fritz/MT marriage plan story, but he himself thinks Fritz would have been utterly capable of it since a) he was truly indifferent to all religions, as opposed to being a hardcore Protestant, and b) marrying MT would have removed him from his father‘s power once and for all and made him his dad‘s social superior, which Fritz as Zimmermann knew him would have been totally into. Zimmermann furtherly argues this explains why Seckendorff and Vienna tried to save Fritz from execution subsequently. Seckendorff wasn‘t just against the English marriage, he was for the Fritz/MT marriage as the thing to make Austria and the HRE secure. And, says Zimmermann, it totally explains why Franz Stephan attended Fritz‘ engagement party. He was gloating over his rival having to tie the knot with MT‘s cousin.
Lastly, Zimmermann says the Fritz/MT marriage would have saved the HRE from the Seven Years War and saved thousands and thousands of lives and thus he‘s a shipper, err, he regrets Fritz didn‘t get away and got to do it. (For Europe, and since the only good thing the MT/Franz Stephan marriage produced was Joseph. )
I find this fascinating. I mean, it‘s all nonsense, of course, but it‘s a great reflection of what was and wasn‘t known in 1790, and Zimmermann is actually a bit closer to reality in his opinion on the question as to whose idea the fabled Fritz/MT marriage plan was and whether the hero of the Protestant faith would have done it than most other people for another century. Also, he‘s the first contemporary Fritz fan I‘ve seen who regrets this marriage didn‘t happen.
(Gloating Franzl at the engagement party takes the cake, though. Zimmermann, you should have tried writing soap operas, you have a gift.)
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/167303.html?thread=1883271#cmt1883271
But wait! Not only do we know Fritz would because of the 1731-1732 letters, but he even had the idea well before Kustrin. In 1730, Fritz told Katte he needed to escape because Seckendorff and Grumbkow were plotting to marry him to an Austrian archduchess and force him to convert to Catholicism.
mildred_of_midgard: Katte said during his interrogation that Fritz said Seckendorff and Grumbkow were trying to make him a Catholic so he could marry an Austrian archduchess and be HRE.
FW: Say WHAATT??! Do you know anything about this, my wretched son??
Fritz: I'm sure there's some mistake! Ask him again.
FW: No fucking way did that ever cross their minds, damnable boyfriend of my son. Fritz has no idea what you're talking about. You wanna take that back?
Katte: I said what I said.
All of Protestant Europe: WOE. Our HERO Fritz was just trying to escape an evil Catholic plot.
Fritz, 6 months later: Convert to Catholicism and outrank Dad, huh? Actually, that's not a bad idea.
Here's the passage in Koser, if you're as disbelieving as I am:
Am meisten aber brachte es ihn auf, daß Katte von dem Prinzen gehört haben wollte, Seckendorff und Grumbkow beabsichtigten, ihn katholisch zu machen und ihm die Hand einer Erzherzogin und die römische Königskrone zuzuwenden. Friedrich Wilhelm setzte in die beiden gerade jetzt das unbegrenzteste Vertrauen. Vergebens beteuerte der Kronprinz, daß ein Mißverständ nis von Katte vorliegen müsse; Katte blieb bei seiner Aussage.
The MT marriage AU follows us wherever we go!
selenak: It does. Also, I'm no longer surprised Förster thought poor Protestant Fritz was trying to escape an Evil Catholic plot, too, until he found the correspondance between Seckendorff and Eugene with Seckendorff being "WTF?" and Eugene going "that's one dangerous young man". Mind you, now my own MT marriage AU is even more AU than I thought because I let Fritz chastize himself for not thinking of marrying an archduchess while Katte was still alive. Which he evidently did. I mean, not that I trust Grumbkow & Seckendorff, but it wasn't in any way in their interest to piss off FW at this point, and they knew that his oldest son becoming a Catholic would have made him incredibly furious. And they knew as well that Fritz converting would have been a sine qua non for any MT (or even her younger sister) marriage project as far as the Habsburgs were concerned.
So, either:
a) Katte is lying to create trouble between FW and G & S, who until this point have been nothing but trouble for his beloved
or
b) Fritz actually did consider the idea as an alternate escape plan, but Katte knew FW would be even more angry at his son for flirting with Catholicism and thus blames G & S for said idea
or
c) Fritz considered the idea but lied to Katte as to who it was from, because he didn't want Katte to know about his budding Machiavellian instincts.
mildred_of_midgard:
I'm no longer surprised Förster thought poor Protestant Fritz was trying to escape an Evil Catholic plot, too
Yes, that makes sense now! There are multiple marriage AU plots going on. It makes sense: if Fritz can't escape his father through one marriage, he'll try another marriage. All he really wants is not to be horrifically abused.
And that was too much to ask. :(
I let Fritz chastize himself for not thinking of marrying an archduchess while Katte was still alive. Which he evidently did.
I was thinking of that! But if Katte really is lying, it may not be AU after all: maybe Fritz got the idea *from* Katte.
But that seems like a surprisingly risky gamble from Katte, if so. (b) and (c) seem more likely to me. Especially (c), if Fritz and Katte can't keep their story straight under interrogation. The most straightforward explanation to me is:
Fritz: *tells Katte about G & S's marriage plan*
Katte: *uses the Evil Plot to justify helping Fritz escape*
FW: *confronts Fritz with his lie*
Fritz: Shit! Dad's never gonna buy that G & S were behind this. "I'm sure there was some mistake! Ask Katte again!"
Fritz: *sending Katte frantic telepathic signals*
Katte: *oblivious* No, seriously, that's what I was told. Don't you want me to get your son away from evil Catholic plots? *bats eyelashes*
FW: The only people not lying to me here are G & S. Off with Fritz and Katte's heads!
Now, I haven't seen the documentary evidence for this supposed accusation by Katte, but I'm trying to get my hands on Hinrichs' book, which might have some of the interrogation material. (Since shipping to the US is expensive, I'm going to try seeing if I can ILL it. Will report back if I'm successful.)
Possible (d) idea:
d) Katte was trying to talk Fritz into staying, and Fritz lied to him to get more support for his plan.
That would be consistent with the account given above, where Katte innocently maintains what he believes to be true and Fritz is frantically denying it.
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/167303.html?thread=1846151#cmt1846151
Then we turned up the primary source for Koser's claim, which turned out to be Hinrich's collection of the 1730 documents pertaining to the escape attempt.
selenak: Oh, and on page 102 we get the Austrian marriage plan.
Question: What caused the Prince to say such lies as (Katte) recently testified to in the interrogation that Count Seckendorf and General Lieutenant Grumbkow had proposed to him marriage to a Catholic Princess?
Response: Cessat.
It probably did not make much difference in the long run, but: Fritz, lying to your boyfriend about whose idea it was to consider marrying your future arch nemesis was not cool, and also stupid.
ETA: Have to add this from the next protocol, which is from the October 11th interrogation of Fritz in Küstrin:
From Katte's statements it is read out loud that the former sticks to his declaration that the Crown Prince had told him in his chamber: "They want me to marry a Catholic princess."
Response: He can't remember this, nor can he think of a reason why he should have said this. If he did say it, he may have easily forgotten it because the matter did not happen this way.
Fritz, I have all the sympathy in the world for you in this situation, but as excuses go, this is a lousy one, and shows how the horrible situation has affected your ability to come up with explanations. Also, I still want to know why on earth you felt the need to lie to Katte about this to begin with.
mildred_of_midgard: One context in which it possibly makes sense: Fritz wanted to escape, Katte was steadfastly refusing to help and trying to talk him out of it, and Fritz got desperate enough to come up with the worst-sounding thing he could think of. Since "facing a lifetime of this abuse" evidently wasn't enough for Katte. It's possible Fritz wasn't even seriously considering Catholic marriage at this point, he was just saying whatever it took to talk Katte into helping him get away. Then, later, still reeling from Katte's death and stuck in prison, it occurred to Fritz that it might really be worth it.
Remember: Katte brought the supposed plot up himself, in his interrogation. This means he 1) believed it (which shows how well he knew the scheming duo, but okay), 2) thought it was bad enough to justify running away, even in the eyes of FW. Fritz is also testifying, apparently independently of Katte, that Katte tried to prevent him from leaving. So the supposed plot might have been what changed Katte's mind. (Which, incidentally, tells you something about Katte and his feelings about Catholicism.)
So...this might be one of the "several regards" in which Fritz could complain about Katte.
selenak: (Which, incidentally, tells you something about Katte and his feelings about Catholicism.)
Indeed it does. If to you converting to Catholicism (even to become Emperor) = Fate worse than steady paternal abuse is, then you're just this side of Oliver Cromwell in your feelings re: the Church of Rome.
selenak reminds me of her alternate explanation: on the question of "how Protestant was Katte that this lie worked on him as a last incentive when the previously witnessed abuse did not?", I remember writing elsewhere (not in the "this side of Oliver Cromwell" reply) that he may have had less religous and more realistic long term reasons to consider this imaginary pressuring of Fritz into converting and marrying MT a terrible thing, to wit: it would make Fritz massively unpopular with a sizable part of his subjects. This is the same reasoning Fritz employs when writing to Wilhelmine about her daughter the Duchess of Württemberg after Wilhelmine has voiced the concern that her unloved son-in-law Carl Eugen might pressure her daughter to convert. (Carl Eugen's mother was a Catholic, his dead father Carl Alexander, had converted, and it had been a disaster, because Württemberg was as hardcore Protestant as Prussia.) Hesse-Kassel, the principality the Hohenzollern had various family ties to (F1's first wife had been from there, and of course later Mina would be), also had a case of a crown prince converting and at once making himself loathed in a dominantly Protestant principality. So while other factors, such as Katte's letter to his father and his asking him to send one of the twins to Katte's old school in Halle so he can learn good Protestantism, do make it look like he was sincere in his Protestantism, he could have been looking out for Fritz' prospects, on the not unfounded assumption (knowing Fritz) that Fritz would still want to become King of Prussia and make a success out of that.
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/170895.html?thread=2197391#cmt2197391
Remember when Nicolai was interviewing Muller's son about the alleged marriage plan? He writes a response to Zimmermann's claim that Fritz tried to escape in order to marry MT.
selenak: Zimmermann, as you may recall, is the planet's first Fritz/MT shipper and conspiracy theorist who deduced in his fragments that Fritz wanting to go to France or England was just a cover story, he was really in league with Seckendorf and had arranged to go to Austria where he wanted to marry MT, thus sparing the world the Silesian Wars and the 7 Years War. (Zimmermann calls this the greatest Fritz plan ever and really mourns it wasn't to be.) This is also the reason why Seckendorf and the Emperor later intervened with FW to save Fritz' life, and why FS was at Fritz' engagement party later, gloating over his defeated rival for MT's love and hand.
Unsurprisingly, Nicolai has an easy time making mincemeat of that theory even without access to the secret state archives, not least because he's collected stuff on Fritz for decades, including the publication of the various foreign monarchs' letters to FW on the subject, which he uses to point out that the one from MT's Dad was just standard for the day. He also correctly thinks that Seckendorff would have shot himself and his own influence on FW massively in the foot if he'd conspired with FW's son against him in this way and would never have done that, and points to all the meetings with Hotham and Guy Dickens Fritz had, as well as Keith going to England, as proof England was the agreed upon escape destination. And he argues that Katte's published letters form the pamphlet about his execution (which Nicolai has read, and which apparantly has just been republished) as well as the description Preacher Müller gave of his death point to Hans Hermann von Katte having been an upstanding, really good Protestant, who would never, ever, have signed on a scheme where his beloved Crown Prince has to convert to the Church of Rome to marry MT. On the contrary, upstanding Protestant Katte would have done anything to prevent this.
...I must say, I'm impressed, because Nicolai does not, repeat, does not have access to the interrogation protocols.
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/184453.html?thread=3277701#cmt3277701
But even this isn't the earliest attestation of this idea. Forselenak reported this, in her write-up on Arneth's biography of Eugene:
FW/G2 almost duel crisis of 1729:
Eugene: Thumbs up! I like it. That G2 is getting way to big for his breeches and Prince Elector of Hanover. Seckendorff, tell FW if there's war, I'm totally joining in .
FW/G2 reconciliation happens.
Eugene: Go figure. That man is so unreliable. Any news on the "make the kid like us" front, Seckendorff?
Seckendorff: Well, he's taking money from me, but if you want my opinion, that kid is evil (böse) and false (falsch) to the core, and if you're hoping for gratitude once FW kicks the bucket, forget it.
Eugene: ...Keep trying to reconcile them anyway. I'm trying to be an optimist here, and he's the future monarch.
(Arneth: SEE!!!!)
Eugene: Still, maybe it can't hurt to make nice with the Brits ourselves.
Brits: We want it in writing that you're never, ever, going to marry MT to Fritz.
(selenak: REALLY? Did I read this?)
Eugene: Perfidious Albion. Firstly, no one in their right mind would believe FW would ever go for such a marriage. But he WOULD be incredibly insulted if such a clause is in a treaty anyway. Secondly, us refusing to include such a clause will undoubtedly be useful as propaganda claiming we intend this marriage. I'm getting too old for this crap.
Arneth: SEEEEEEE!!!!!
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/190222.html?thread=3630094#cmt3630094>
Finally, it's spread out over many comments so I'm not going to reproduce it here, but you can read our speculations in 2019 about the "what-if" of Fritz and MT marrying and how that might have played out: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/160700.html?thread=1118140#cmt1118140.
Based on new information acquired since these discussions took place,selenak had more commentary to add.
what I hadn't known about when reading Hinrichs' trial and interrogation transcriptions was the bonkers Clement affair. Because if you recall, the con Clement sells FW on in 1718/1719, so thoroughly that FW will never quite completely disbelieve it, is that there was an evil Catholic conspiracy to kidnap/kill him and raise Fritz as a Catholic, and that Eugene was a primary mover in this on Team Vienna's behalf. FW actually believes this completely until Clement overreaches himself and also tries to frame Old Dessauer as involved, and afterwards always will have his doubts. (Not in terms of his bff Dessauer but in terms of Teams Vienna & Saxony.) Whereas in 1730, he doesn't believe for a moment that Seckendorff & Grumbkow (& Eugene, acting for the Emperor) would conspire to get Fritz to convert and marry him to MT. Now the Clement plot sounds way more outlandish than the one Fritz made up for Katte, and FW is given to paranoia in general, so what's the reason why he won't consider this for a heartbeat? The difference betweeen 1718 ("of course Catholics led by Eugene would want to kill me and raise my kid as one of theirs!") and 1730 ("what rubbish is this?")?
a) The fact that Katte and Fritz are contradicting each other on this point
b) In 1719, he still loved his son without hating him as well; by 1730, believing that when in doubt, Fritz is to blame is way stronger than Distrust Of Catholics
c) Knowing Grumbkow & Seckendorff well enough to know they wouldn't pull this one, as it would make them lose at once any influence they have on him
d) All of the above?
Lastly, what I also hadn't known about when reading Hinrichs was that one and a half generations later, when Charlotte's daughter Anna Amalia, Duchess of Weimar, is recently widowed and fighting to get the Weimar regency without having to share it with a representative of the Emperor (in the end, she'd share it with her father, which effectually meant not sharing it since her father remained at Braunschweig), there was an interlude where there was a rumor of an Evil Catholic Plot (tm) to kidnap baby Carl August and raise him, you guessed it, a Catholic in Vienna. Anna Amalia's mother Charlotte (daughter of FW) believed this completely. It didn't happen, but it caused a lot of panic for a while.
Add to this that Wilhelmine in her memoirs also reports the Clement plot as the genuine article, and it's hard not to conclude that FW must have raised his children with this impression. I bet a part of the nobility, like very Protestant Hans Heinrich, believed it as well, and consequently so did Hans Herrmann, which explains why Katte had no problem believing Fritz.
If anything, Fritz must have been surprised that neither Eugene nor Seckendorff nor anyone in Vienna seemed keen to take his bait and consider him as a prospect for MT and conversion material.
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/195296.html?thread=3823584#cmt3823584
selenak reported on a miniseries about MT:The Maria Theresia two parter early on has a not very historical case of Prince Eugen & Grumpkow scheming to to get those crazy kids - her and Fritz - together in a marriage alliance, difference of religion be damned, thereby solving the succession troubles, and young teenage MT basically is all "You want me to marry into that insane family with all the abuse? Thanks but no thanks, I'm marrying Franzl!"
But then,
mildred_of_midgard ran across a historical case of this ship in MacDonogh!Frederick was looking for solutions that might bring him back his liberty. On 11 April 1731 he hit on the idea of standing down as crown prince in favour of his brother William, and putting himself forward as a candidate for the Empire. To this end he suggested that one of the two Habsburg archduchesses might be made over to him for a wife. The letter was also signed by a group of men who were forming themselves into the prince’s new council: his marshal, Wolden, Natzmer and Rohwedel. Grumbkow was alarmed by this new suggestion from Frederick: ‘an archduchess would never marry a prince who wasn’t completely Catholic’. He sent the letter back to Hille and told him to burn it in the presence of the prince.
Both Seckendorff and the king none the less heard about the idea, the latter probably after Seckendorff sent word to Prince Eugene in Vienna, who was verging on senility and wanted Frederick William to tell him which archduchess he had in mind. Prince Eugene described the project as ‘peculiar’. Frederick William was even less impressed, and he was hurt by the thought that his son might consider converting to Catholicism.
mildred_of_midgard: Keep in mind, Katte was executed Nov 6, 1730. This is only 6 months later. FW's "rehabilitation" regime is going full strength trying to break his son's will. Fritz must have been *desperate*.Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/160700.html?thread=1151420#cmt1151420
Of course, the difference is that this was Fritz's idea, and Eugene and Seckendorf were very "WTF no" about it. We later turned up the primary source for this, in Förster's collection of correspondence:
selenak: Now, if I go by the editorial remarks Förster in his first volume thought there was an evil Catholic-Imperial plot afoot to make Fritz in his hour of need a Catholic. Here, in volume 3, he admits the documents don't bear that out, as the Imperials are less than thrilled by the MT/Conversion idea, which is that of Fritz, but he assures his readers that the hero of the Protestant faith surely was just looking to incriminate Grumbkow & Seckendorff in the eyes of FW and never would he ever. Meanwhile, in 1731, Prince Eugene seems to be far from senile, for upon hearing from Grumbkow that Fritz is interested in aquiring an Archduchess, he makes this assessment of Junior:The proposal sent by the Crown Prince to Grumbkow is strange, and Grumbkow did well to give his response in such a way, for it seems likely that the Crown Prince suggested such a project to deduce from the replly as to whether the King has any attention of looking for a marriage with an Archduchess. This is enlightening regarding the Crown Prince's falsehood, as is his reply through Hille to Grumbkow that he would have to do violence to his nature in such case, as so far he has little love for the Archhouse. This new project as well as the one from some months ago which came to us via Natzmer, shows how far reaching ideas this young man has, and while these are currently spontanous and not well thought through, he does not appear energy or common sense. Which is why he ought to become more dangerous to his neighbours in time, if he can't be rid of his current principles. Other than the Bevern marriage, there's little or nothing to hope for him right now. The harder the King treats him, the more he'll insist on changing all his father does once it is his time.
Eugene, I'm impressed.
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/166556.html?thread=1807004#cmt1807004
selenak revisiting the letters in more detail:So, checking out the various Volz volumes again, I was reminded of the bizarreness, I was reminded once more of Fritz' "Me/Archduchess = Me/Freedom = OTP!" plan in Küstrin, which had everyone else going WTF, and thus neatly proved that either Fritz was lying to Katte point blank when claiming Grumbkow and Seckendorff were trying to pressure him into this, or Katte made it up on the spot during interrogation, which is doubtful, given the frequency with which Fritz returns to this idea in 1731 and early 1732. Now why would Fritz lie like the lying liar he ultimately was in later years towards the person who was at the point of the lie his main confidant? Possibly because Katte (as opposed to Peter Keith) advised caution and didn't want to go with the escape plan at first when Fritz broke it to him. But why this particular lie? Having read Hans Heinrich's letters about his dead son by now, I tentatively suggest Fritz might have been aware that Katte wasn't a deist, let alone an atheist, but was in fact despite liking French philosophers serious about his Protestantism, and claiming that the two most powerful schemers at court who had his father's ear most of the time were trying to set him up for marriage (and thus Catholic conversion) with a Habsburg would work as an argument in his favor with Katte. Either way, I don't think I've ever seen fanfic or profic tackling the (very likely) fact that Fritz lied to Katte in 1730 in order to get him to agree to the escape plan.
As a reminder, here's the first time Fritz brings up the Me/MT = OTP! plan in Küstrin.
Hille to Grumbkow, April 11th 1731: Tonight at 12 the Crown Prince got me out of bed in order to talk to him. In the presence of his gentlemen - (these are the Kammerjunker Fritz by then had been given as attendants) he presented a plan to me which I have taken down in writing and which I deliver to Your Excellency in his name. He is starting to get so bored in his present situation that he sees no possibility to change it except for taking every bad impression his father the King has of him away; he believes to succeed in this by removing every possible suspicion and doubt regarding his marriage plans. He tells this to you in confidence and relies completely on your wisdom; for he is convinced that you will use his declaration in his interests, and even if it was just to convince his majesty that he's seeking to guess the means by which he can return into the King's grace. The bearer of this message will await Your Excellency's orders; I'm asking urgently to send the plan back, the first drawing of which with the signatures of the three gentlemen I have retained. I must admit that I see great difficulties in all of this, and basically regard it as impossible.
Attached: Fritz' v.v. secret plan, dated Küstrin, April 11th 1731. Opens with a declaration that he wants to do anything his father wants, despite having to live like a "Kleinstädter" (citizen of a small town) now, and swears he has no marriage intention against the King's will anymore. To prove it, he swears he'll agree to "the intention of the King if his Majesty, despite rumor having it otherwise, has such intentions towards the House of Austria", and leaves it to Grumbkow's discretion to break this to FW. For:
As the slightest glimpse of light in situations like the one his royal highness is in awake hope, he does not consider the affair to be impossible. Since the Imperial Court seems no longer to want the Duke of Lorraine and no other suitable Catholic prince is available, said court could not make a better choice than to connect itself with a House which practices in its own territory complete religious toleration, and if England, which is inseparable from the United Netherlands, connects itself through marriage with the Princess of Prussia, then his Royal Highness believes the Pragmatic Sanction of the Emperor to be firm enough that no one would have to worry about possible contradictions.
Take that in. BTW, I don't know where Fritz heard FS is no longer an option for MT. Clearly, his sources suck when it comes to Austrian gossip. But wait, there's more.
Since the Prince does recognize that the union of the Austrian heartlands and those of the House of Prussia will uneven the European balance too much and could awake jealousy, yes, even resistance, he will gladly give up the later in favor of his brother, as soon as the deal is made and he's been given a large enough budget so he can live decently in the life times of the Emperor.
We the undersigned.... Etc.
Once more, I feel completely justified in the first of my Fritz/MT AUs. :)
Meanwhile, Grumbkow's WTF?!? reply letter to Hille is also immensely quotable. (And revealing re: FW projecting on Fritz.)
Berlin, April 14th 1731.
I didn't know what hit me when I returned yesterday from Potsdam and found the included. I'm sending you the entire thing back and beg you to burn it in the presence of the Crown Prince and the undersigned. (...) The entire document rests on completely invented assumptions. (...)
The King has much worse thoughts about the Crown Prince's character about which he's talked to me at length yesterday. 1.) He considers him to be a complete fraud, 2.) he's convinced the Crown Prince never loved him, that the opposite is true, even more than that; 3.) that he's content as a King in Küstrin, just because he' doesn't need to be near (FW) anymore, and that he hates everything which includes effort and work; 4. finally, he believes that anything that gives him, the King, the slightest bit of joy is bound to be repellent to the Crown Prince. If one tries to distract him ever so delicately and to suggest less worse interpretations, I get the reply: "If I see him coming from thirty feet away, I can read from his face what's in his heart. He probably thinks I have magical powers", and so on and so forth.
As you can see, it's necessary to disperse these impressions, and to achieve this aim, Herr von Wolden needs to support me in his reports by claiming that the Crown Prince gets ever sadder, that he doesn't see an end to his misery and his disgrace and that he's afraid all this will have a bad effect on (Fritz') temper. When I told the King: "Your Majesty may believe my word that the Crown Prince is weary, and he won't be able to endure much longer," I noticed this leased him, and he asked me: "Do you really believe that?" Me: "Yes, I've been informed in great detail of this." In short, I am telling you what the King holds against him, and you can address this in your future official letters to me. Most of all, it has to be achieved that the Crown Prince is able to see the King at least once. If this can be achieved, everything else can be worked out. You know my thoughts on this matter. If it can't be, then only God can resolve this happily. But we as humans do what we can, and then we can't be blamed...
However, Grumbkow wasn't shocked enough not to report the entire thing to Seckendorff, who told Eugene. I already quoted from Eugene's WTF letter, but it's worth quoting again.
Vienna, May 12th 1731
...The project sent by the Crown Prince to Grumbkow is very odd, and Grumbkow has done well to reply as he did, as it strikes me as quite likely that the Crown Prince has come up with such eagerness with such a project in order to deduce by the reply whether the King intends a marriage with an Archduchess. It proves the Crown Prince's falseness and judging by what he replied in turn to Grumbkow via Hille, he's forced himself into such a prosposition in order to assume the guise of love despite having little of it for the archhouse, it's quite revealing: this new project and the one from several months ago and what other far reaching ideas this young gentleman has. And despite this latest one is improvised and hasn't been pondered thoroughly, he's clearly not lacking in energy and a sharp mind, and he'll become dangerous to his neighbours in time unless he can be talked out of his current principles, which isn't to be hoped for very much or at all except for the Bevern marriage (with EC, who is the Empress' niece) ; the harsher the King deals with him, the more resistant he will be, and will in his time alter all which his father does.
I would say Eugene could be right about this just being a fishing expedition by Fritz, except in early 1732, he's back to telling Grumbkow the Empress shouldn't give him her niece (EC) but her daughter, and wouldn't that be a great idea.
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/183223.html?thread=3169719#cmt3169719
More primary sources in the form of letters from Fritz to Grumbkow even after he was released from Kustrin, trying to get married to MT instead of EC:
selenak: [Koser has] a lot of quotes from the letters to Grumbkow, including one from early 1732 (!) where Fritz tells Grumbkow the Empress would to better to give him her daughter (MT) instead of her niece (EC). No MT for you, Fritz, believe me, you were both happier that way. Though whether Europe was, that‘s another question. Anyway, that he keeps bringing up this MT marriage plan while the Imperial party is all „naaaaah, let’s not“ repeatedly is hilarious in the face of all the „evil Catholic plot!“ allegations. Btw, Koser assures us our hero naturally had nothing but contempt for the Catholic religion (true) and was a true Protestant in his heart, Deist leanings not withstanding. If the Emperor had given him his daughter he‘d still have NEVER converted! (Well...)Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/167303.html?thread=1851527#cmt1851527
And then we turned up a not very reliable historical figure crediting FW with the idea:
mildred_of_midgard: Oh, speaking of the MT marriage AU, MacDonogh says Thiébault says FW was responsible for the idea. So maybe your miniseries scriptwriters were reading Thiébault! (That may be giving them too much credit.)selenak: FW credited for the MT marriage idea: sounds like a French Catholic (i.e. Thièbault) with little to no idea how much of a Calvinist FW was, and how important the royal house being arch protestants was in Prussia. Not surprising, if you consider T likely did not interact with any non-court based Prussians at all. I mean, he was forbidden to learn German, so he lived in this bubble of French speaking nobles, most of whom by the later 1760s wouldn't have memories of FW anymore.18th century authors with a dog in the fight and no access to the archives debate over whether Fritz would or would not:
mildred_of_midgard: So, you know Muller, the pastor at Küstrin? His son got interviewed by Nicolai fifty years later. Carlyle quotes the son:"'My Father used to say, he found an excellent knowledge and conviction of the truths of religion in the Crown-Prince. [Insert evidence of how devout Fritz was at that point in his life.] Whoever considers this fine knowledge of religion, and reflects on the peculiar character and genius of the young Herr, which was ever struggling towards light and clearness (for at that time he had not become indifferent to religion, he often prayed with my Father on his knees),— will find that it was morally impossible this young Prince could have thought [as some foolish persons have asserted] of throwing himself into the arms of Papal Superstition [seeking help at Vienna, marrying an Austrian Archduchess, and I know not what] or allow the intrigues of Catholic Priests to'— Oh no, Herr Muller, nobody but very foolish persons could imagine such a thing of this young Herr."
So apparently, the marriage project was well enough known that half a century later, some guy who wasn't even there was still trying to convince people Fritz WOULD NEVER.
Me: *is pretty sure Fritz would*
Also: is Carlyle being sarcastic in that last sentence or not? I can't tell without reading him more extensively, and I don't want to read him more extensively. I only cherry-pick from the Fritz bio because it has a gazillion volumes' worth of data.
selenak: I can't tell, either; as a late 19th century cranky Scot, he's both likely to have thought "as if Fritz, hero and defender of Protestants everywhere in Europe, would!" and "of course Fritz, masterful tactician and faker if needs must, would, you naive Son Of Muller!"But yeah, I'm with you: he would have if he could have. Meanwhile, here's how I imagine things went down in Potsdam:
Grumpkow: Your Majesty, the crown prince is now very devout, praying with Pastor Muller.
FW: Good.
G: He's sworn off the English marriage project.
FW: He'd better.
G:...and wants to marry an Austrian archduchess, convert to Catholicism and move to Vienna.
FW: WTF?!!!!!
G: Just a suggestion, maybe allow him to play the flute again? Just as an alternative to Catholicism, of course.
Meanwhile, in a dispatch to Vienna:
Seckendorff to Prince Eugene: Things are still bonkers here, crown prince just proposed to archduchess, plz ignore!
Eugene to Seckendorff: WTF????
Zimmermann, in contrast, writing in 1790, not only thinks Fritz would but thinks Fritz *did*--at least in terms of attempting to escape in 1730 so he could marry MT.
selenak: Zimmerman‘s theory as to why Fritz tried to escape is pretty original, though. He says he doesn‘t buy the story of Fritz wanting to go to England and still pursuing the English marriage project. No, his own theory is that Fritz wanted to go to Austria and marry MT. He says he knows there is much indignation and scepticism about the Fritz/MT marriage plan story, but he himself thinks Fritz would have been utterly capable of it since a) he was truly indifferent to all religions, as opposed to being a hardcore Protestant, and b) marrying MT would have removed him from his father‘s power once and for all and made him his dad‘s social superior, which Fritz as Zimmermann knew him would have been totally into. Zimmermann furtherly argues this explains why Seckendorff and Vienna tried to save Fritz from execution subsequently. Seckendorff wasn‘t just against the English marriage, he was for the Fritz/MT marriage as the thing to make Austria and the HRE secure. And, says Zimmermann, it totally explains why Franz Stephan attended Fritz‘ engagement party. He was gloating over his rival having to tie the knot with MT‘s cousin.Lastly, Zimmermann says the Fritz/MT marriage would have saved the HRE from the Seven Years War and saved thousands and thousands of lives and thus he‘s a shipper, err, he regrets Fritz didn‘t get away and got to do it. (For Europe, and since the only good thing the MT/Franz Stephan marriage produced was Joseph. )
I find this fascinating. I mean, it‘s all nonsense, of course, but it‘s a great reflection of what was and wasn‘t known in 1790, and Zimmermann is actually a bit closer to reality in his opinion on the question as to whose idea the fabled Fritz/MT marriage plan was and whether the hero of the Protestant faith would have done it than most other people for another century. Also, he‘s the first contemporary Fritz fan I‘ve seen who regrets this marriage didn‘t happen.
(Gloating Franzl at the engagement party takes the cake, though. Zimmermann, you should have tried writing soap operas, you have a gift.)
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/167303.html?thread=1883271#cmt1883271
But wait! Not only do we know Fritz would because of the 1731-1732 letters, but he even had the idea well before Kustrin. In 1730, Fritz told Katte he needed to escape because Seckendorff and Grumbkow were plotting to marry him to an Austrian archduchess and force him to convert to Catholicism.
mildred_of_midgard: Katte said during his interrogation that Fritz said Seckendorff and Grumbkow were trying to make him a Catholic so he could marry an Austrian archduchess and be HRE.FW: Say WHAATT??! Do you know anything about this, my wretched son??
Fritz: I'm sure there's some mistake! Ask him again.
FW: No fucking way did that ever cross their minds, damnable boyfriend of my son. Fritz has no idea what you're talking about. You wanna take that back?
Katte: I said what I said.
All of Protestant Europe: WOE. Our HERO Fritz was just trying to escape an evil Catholic plot.
Fritz, 6 months later: Convert to Catholicism and outrank Dad, huh? Actually, that's not a bad idea.
Here's the passage in Koser, if you're as disbelieving as I am:
Am meisten aber brachte es ihn auf, daß Katte von dem Prinzen gehört haben wollte, Seckendorff und Grumbkow beabsichtigten, ihn katholisch zu machen und ihm die Hand einer Erzherzogin und die römische Königskrone zuzuwenden. Friedrich Wilhelm setzte in die beiden gerade jetzt das unbegrenzteste Vertrauen. Vergebens beteuerte der Kronprinz, daß ein Mißverständ nis von Katte vorliegen müsse; Katte blieb bei seiner Aussage.
The MT marriage AU follows us wherever we go!
selenak: It does. Also, I'm no longer surprised Förster thought poor Protestant Fritz was trying to escape an Evil Catholic plot, too, until he found the correspondance between Seckendorff and Eugene with Seckendorff being "WTF?" and Eugene going "that's one dangerous young man". Mind you, now my own MT marriage AU is even more AU than I thought because I let Fritz chastize himself for not thinking of marrying an archduchess while Katte was still alive. Which he evidently did. I mean, not that I trust Grumbkow & Seckendorff, but it wasn't in any way in their interest to piss off FW at this point, and they knew that his oldest son becoming a Catholic would have made him incredibly furious. And they knew as well that Fritz converting would have been a sine qua non for any MT (or even her younger sister) marriage project as far as the Habsburgs were concerned.So, either:
a) Katte is lying to create trouble between FW and G & S, who until this point have been nothing but trouble for his beloved
or
b) Fritz actually did consider the idea as an alternate escape plan, but Katte knew FW would be even more angry at his son for flirting with Catholicism and thus blames G & S for said idea
or
c) Fritz considered the idea but lied to Katte as to who it was from, because he didn't want Katte to know about his budding Machiavellian instincts.
mildred_of_midgard: I'm no longer surprised Förster thought poor Protestant Fritz was trying to escape an Evil Catholic plot, too
Yes, that makes sense now! There are multiple marriage AU plots going on. It makes sense: if Fritz can't escape his father through one marriage, he'll try another marriage. All he really wants is not to be horrifically abused.
And that was too much to ask. :(
I let Fritz chastize himself for not thinking of marrying an archduchess while Katte was still alive. Which he evidently did.
I was thinking of that! But if Katte really is lying, it may not be AU after all: maybe Fritz got the idea *from* Katte.
But that seems like a surprisingly risky gamble from Katte, if so. (b) and (c) seem more likely to me. Especially (c), if Fritz and Katte can't keep their story straight under interrogation. The most straightforward explanation to me is:
Fritz: *tells Katte about G & S's marriage plan*
Katte: *uses the Evil Plot to justify helping Fritz escape*
FW: *confronts Fritz with his lie*
Fritz: Shit! Dad's never gonna buy that G & S were behind this. "I'm sure there was some mistake! Ask Katte again!"
Fritz: *sending Katte frantic telepathic signals*
Katte: *oblivious* No, seriously, that's what I was told. Don't you want me to get your son away from evil Catholic plots? *bats eyelashes*
FW: The only people not lying to me here are G & S. Off with Fritz and Katte's heads!
Now, I haven't seen the documentary evidence for this supposed accusation by Katte, but I'm trying to get my hands on Hinrichs' book, which might have some of the interrogation material. (Since shipping to the US is expensive, I'm going to try seeing if I can ILL it. Will report back if I'm successful.)
Possible (d) idea:
d) Katte was trying to talk Fritz into staying, and Fritz lied to him to get more support for his plan.
That would be consistent with the account given above, where Katte innocently maintains what he believes to be true and Fritz is frantically denying it.
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/167303.html?thread=1846151#cmt1846151
Then we turned up the primary source for Koser's claim, which turned out to be Hinrich's collection of the 1730 documents pertaining to the escape attempt.
selenak: Oh, and on page 102 we get the Austrian marriage plan.Question: What caused the Prince to say such lies as (Katte) recently testified to in the interrogation that Count Seckendorf and General Lieutenant Grumbkow had proposed to him marriage to a Catholic Princess?
Response: Cessat.
It probably did not make much difference in the long run, but: Fritz, lying to your boyfriend about whose idea it was to consider marrying your future arch nemesis was not cool, and also stupid.
ETA: Have to add this from the next protocol, which is from the October 11th interrogation of Fritz in Küstrin:
From Katte's statements it is read out loud that the former sticks to his declaration that the Crown Prince had told him in his chamber: "They want me to marry a Catholic princess."
Response: He can't remember this, nor can he think of a reason why he should have said this. If he did say it, he may have easily forgotten it because the matter did not happen this way.
Fritz, I have all the sympathy in the world for you in this situation, but as excuses go, this is a lousy one, and shows how the horrible situation has affected your ability to come up with explanations. Also, I still want to know why on earth you felt the need to lie to Katte about this to begin with.
mildred_of_midgard: One context in which it possibly makes sense: Fritz wanted to escape, Katte was steadfastly refusing to help and trying to talk him out of it, and Fritz got desperate enough to come up with the worst-sounding thing he could think of. Since "facing a lifetime of this abuse" evidently wasn't enough for Katte. It's possible Fritz wasn't even seriously considering Catholic marriage at this point, he was just saying whatever it took to talk Katte into helping him get away. Then, later, still reeling from Katte's death and stuck in prison, it occurred to Fritz that it might really be worth it.Remember: Katte brought the supposed plot up himself, in his interrogation. This means he 1) believed it (which shows how well he knew the scheming duo, but okay), 2) thought it was bad enough to justify running away, even in the eyes of FW. Fritz is also testifying, apparently independently of Katte, that Katte tried to prevent him from leaving. So the supposed plot might have been what changed Katte's mind. (Which, incidentally, tells you something about Katte and his feelings about Catholicism.)
So...this might be one of the "several regards" in which Fritz could complain about Katte.
selenak: (Which, incidentally, tells you something about Katte and his feelings about Catholicism.)Indeed it does. If to you converting to Catholicism (even to become Emperor) = Fate worse than steady paternal abuse is, then you're just this side of Oliver Cromwell in your feelings re: the Church of Rome.
selenak reminds me of her alternate explanation: on the question of "how Protestant was Katte that this lie worked on him as a last incentive when the previously witnessed abuse did not?", I remember writing elsewhere (not in the "this side of Oliver Cromwell" reply) that he may have had less religous and more realistic long term reasons to consider this imaginary pressuring of Fritz into converting and marrying MT a terrible thing, to wit: it would make Fritz massively unpopular with a sizable part of his subjects. This is the same reasoning Fritz employs when writing to Wilhelmine about her daughter the Duchess of Württemberg after Wilhelmine has voiced the concern that her unloved son-in-law Carl Eugen might pressure her daughter to convert. (Carl Eugen's mother was a Catholic, his dead father Carl Alexander, had converted, and it had been a disaster, because Württemberg was as hardcore Protestant as Prussia.) Hesse-Kassel, the principality the Hohenzollern had various family ties to (F1's first wife had been from there, and of course later Mina would be), also had a case of a crown prince converting and at once making himself loathed in a dominantly Protestant principality. So while other factors, such as Katte's letter to his father and his asking him to send one of the twins to Katte's old school in Halle so he can learn good Protestantism, do make it look like he was sincere in his Protestantism, he could have been looking out for Fritz' prospects, on the not unfounded assumption (knowing Fritz) that Fritz would still want to become King of Prussia and make a success out of that.Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/170895.html?thread=2197391#cmt2197391
Remember when Nicolai was interviewing Muller's son about the alleged marriage plan? He writes a response to Zimmermann's claim that Fritz tried to escape in order to marry MT.
selenak: Zimmermann, as you may recall, is the planet's first Fritz/MT shipper and conspiracy theorist who deduced in his fragments that Fritz wanting to go to France or England was just a cover story, he was really in league with Seckendorf and had arranged to go to Austria where he wanted to marry MT, thus sparing the world the Silesian Wars and the 7 Years War. (Zimmermann calls this the greatest Fritz plan ever and really mourns it wasn't to be.) This is also the reason why Seckendorf and the Emperor later intervened with FW to save Fritz' life, and why FS was at Fritz' engagement party later, gloating over his defeated rival for MT's love and hand.Unsurprisingly, Nicolai has an easy time making mincemeat of that theory even without access to the secret state archives, not least because he's collected stuff on Fritz for decades, including the publication of the various foreign monarchs' letters to FW on the subject, which he uses to point out that the one from MT's Dad was just standard for the day. He also correctly thinks that Seckendorff would have shot himself and his own influence on FW massively in the foot if he'd conspired with FW's son against him in this way and would never have done that, and points to all the meetings with Hotham and Guy Dickens Fritz had, as well as Keith going to England, as proof England was the agreed upon escape destination. And he argues that Katte's published letters form the pamphlet about his execution (which Nicolai has read, and which apparantly has just been republished) as well as the description Preacher Müller gave of his death point to Hans Hermann von Katte having been an upstanding, really good Protestant, who would never, ever, have signed on a scheme where his beloved Crown Prince has to convert to the Church of Rome to marry MT. On the contrary, upstanding Protestant Katte would have done anything to prevent this.
...I must say, I'm impressed, because Nicolai does not, repeat, does not have access to the interrogation protocols.
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/184453.html?thread=3277701#cmt3277701
But even this isn't the earliest attestation of this idea. For
selenak reported this, in her write-up on Arneth's biography of Eugene:FW/G2 almost duel crisis of 1729:
Eugene: Thumbs up! I like it. That G2 is getting way to big for his breeches and Prince Elector of Hanover. Seckendorff, tell FW if there's war, I'm totally joining in .
FW/G2 reconciliation happens.
Eugene: Go figure. That man is so unreliable. Any news on the "make the kid like us" front, Seckendorff?
Seckendorff: Well, he's taking money from me, but if you want my opinion, that kid is evil (böse) and false (falsch) to the core, and if you're hoping for gratitude once FW kicks the bucket, forget it.
Eugene: ...Keep trying to reconcile them anyway. I'm trying to be an optimist here, and he's the future monarch.
(Arneth: SEE!!!!)
Eugene: Still, maybe it can't hurt to make nice with the Brits ourselves.
Brits: We want it in writing that you're never, ever, going to marry MT to Fritz.
(
selenak: REALLY? Did I read this?)Eugene: Perfidious Albion. Firstly, no one in their right mind would believe FW would ever go for such a marriage. But he WOULD be incredibly insulted if such a clause is in a treaty anyway. Secondly, us refusing to include such a clause will undoubtedly be useful as propaganda claiming we intend this marriage. I'm getting too old for this crap.
Arneth: SEEEEEEE!!!!!
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/190222.html?thread=3630094#cmt3630094>
Finally, it's spread out over many comments so I'm not going to reproduce it here, but you can read our speculations in 2019 about the "what-if" of Fritz and MT marrying and how that might have played out: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/160700.html?thread=1118140#cmt1118140.
Based on new information acquired since these discussions took place,
selenak had more commentary to add.what I hadn't known about when reading Hinrichs' trial and interrogation transcriptions was the bonkers Clement affair. Because if you recall, the con Clement sells FW on in 1718/1719, so thoroughly that FW will never quite completely disbelieve it, is that there was an evil Catholic conspiracy to kidnap/kill him and raise Fritz as a Catholic, and that Eugene was a primary mover in this on Team Vienna's behalf. FW actually believes this completely until Clement overreaches himself and also tries to frame Old Dessauer as involved, and afterwards always will have his doubts. (Not in terms of his bff Dessauer but in terms of Teams Vienna & Saxony.) Whereas in 1730, he doesn't believe for a moment that Seckendorff & Grumbkow (& Eugene, acting for the Emperor) would conspire to get Fritz to convert and marry him to MT. Now the Clement plot sounds way more outlandish than the one Fritz made up for Katte, and FW is given to paranoia in general, so what's the reason why he won't consider this for a heartbeat? The difference betweeen 1718 ("of course Catholics led by Eugene would want to kill me and raise my kid as one of theirs!") and 1730 ("what rubbish is this?")?
a) The fact that Katte and Fritz are contradicting each other on this point
b) In 1719, he still loved his son without hating him as well; by 1730, believing that when in doubt, Fritz is to blame is way stronger than Distrust Of Catholics
c) Knowing Grumbkow & Seckendorff well enough to know they wouldn't pull this one, as it would make them lose at once any influence they have on him
d) All of the above?
Lastly, what I also hadn't known about when reading Hinrichs was that one and a half generations later, when Charlotte's daughter Anna Amalia, Duchess of Weimar, is recently widowed and fighting to get the Weimar regency without having to share it with a representative of the Emperor (in the end, she'd share it with her father, which effectually meant not sharing it since her father remained at Braunschweig), there was an interlude where there was a rumor of an Evil Catholic Plot (tm) to kidnap baby Carl August and raise him, you guessed it, a Catholic in Vienna. Anna Amalia's mother Charlotte (daughter of FW) believed this completely. It didn't happen, but it caused a lot of panic for a while.
Add to this that Wilhelmine in her memoirs also reports the Clement plot as the genuine article, and it's hard not to conclude that FW must have raised his children with this impression. I bet a part of the nobility, like very Protestant Hans Heinrich, believed it as well, and consequently so did Hans Herrmann, which explains why Katte had no problem believing Fritz.
If anything, Fritz must have been surprised that neither Eugene nor Seckendorff nor anyone in Vienna seemed keen to take his bait and consider him as a prospect for MT and conversion material.
Original discussion: https://cahn.dreamwidth.org/195296.html?thread=3823584#cmt3823584
